| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 12:50 am |
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SteveS
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Hi. I am in the process of setting up two smoke detectors on my system: Version outside 4.207. I am programming via the engineers menu.
I have set the two zones (10 & 11) as alarm type 23. (The sensors have NC contacts) and they are NON eol. I have checked the jumpers and they are set correct.
When I test the alarms I only get a "zone trouble message" NOT an instant alarm with a type 11 siren. I have checked the settings for the zone type - they all seem to be as the default for this zone type - I must be missing a trick somewhere.
Kind regards
Steve
Comment by Cytech
The above should be Zone Type 23. not Alarm Type 23. Zones are programmmed as Zone types, and Zone Types are assigtned to Alarm Types
Last edited on Friday May 2nd, 2008 04:02 am by admin
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 03:28 am |
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hendy
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One of the causes of Zone Trouble is wrong jumper setting (JZ10 for zone 10 and JZ11 for zone 11) but since you've checked those are correct then the other possibility would be communication failure between main board and LEM. Was the zone trouble announced shortly after power up?
Another cause of Zone Trouble could be that other voltages are connected to the zone input, for example if the zone wiring is shorted to other wires. Connect a switch (to simulate open and close contact) instead of the smoke detectors and go to Security Check mode F3, 2 to test if this is the case.
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 07:36 am |
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SteveS
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Thank you for the response.
As for your comments in red, My mistake - 10 and 11 are set to ZONE TYPE 23.
In answer to your first para. NO the problem only occurs when I test the alarms. (In this case by using real smoke). Both show exactly the same problem. ie only zone trouble when the contacts open.
I have also "opened" the circuit by disconnecting the J10 terminal on the board.
And still the same problem.
Any more suggestions, please.
Thanks
Steve
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 08:33 am |
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hendy
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Try to connect the smoke detectors to other available zones like zone 15 and zone 16 and see whether you are still getting the Zone Trouble? Make sure that location 2658 code is 12 (fire alarm).
Another alternative would be temporarily setting the zones as zone type 1, connect your smoke detectors and test them. Zone type 1 should give you intruder alarm when triggered.
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 12:34 pm |
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admin
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SteveS wrote: In answer to your first para. NO the problem only occurs when I test the alarms. (In this case by using real smoke). Both show exactly the same problem. ie only zone trouble when the contacts open.
I have also "opened" the circuit by disconnecting the J10 terminal on the board.
And still the same problem. "
You have disconnected the terminal blocks from zone 10. Can you clarify what you mean by "and still the same problem". Does this mean that you get zone trouble or not?
If you do not get zone trouble with nothing connected to the zone, and you do get it when the smoke detector activates, then the problem is not with the zone settings, it is with the smoke detector. It does not give an open contact when it activates, there is some voltage which is causing zone trouble.
Security sensors should present open or closed contacts or "Dry" contacts to an alarm system without any voltage
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 01:44 pm |
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SteveS
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You have disconnected the terminal blocks from zone 10. Can you clarify what you mean by "and still the same problem". Does this mean that you get zone trouble or not?
With the wire to zone 10 (not the common) removed - ie similating an open contact I get exactly the same problem, as when testing the sensor with real smoke. IE Zone trouble and not a full fire alarm activation.
I have just changed the zone type on Z10 to 1, set the system to night mode and tested the smoke detector. I got a FULL ALARM WITH SIREN.
HAVE THERE EVER BEEN ANY CHANGES, BETWEEN THE VARIOUS VERSIONS OF COMFORT, TO ZONE TYPE 23 THAT WOULD BE AT THE ROOT OF THIS PROBLEM?
Best wishes
Steve
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 02:25 pm |
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admin
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The behaviour you have described is correct
A zone trouble for zone type 1 when the system is armed causes a FULL ALARM
Zone trouble for zone type 23 at all times causes Zone Trouble
There has been NO changes in the behaviour of zone type. All the behaviour is determined by the settings of the Zone types
The "Trouble" column in the Zone Types screen determines the alarm which happens when there is Trouble when the system is armed
Hence zone type 1 trouble when armed goes into alarm, zone 23 trouble when armed goes to Zone Trouble alarm. these are not hard coded
What it appears to be is the wrong setting of the EOL shunts
Double check that they are set to NO EOL ie the shunt should be towards the terminal blocks. If it is set as Double EOL resistors then there will be zone trouble
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| Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 04:33 pm |
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SteveS
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I have double checked ( as I even started to doubt myself)!!
The shunts ARE near to the terminals on Ccts 10 and 11.
So - to recap -
If I change the zone type on CCT 10 to 1 and test, in night mode, we get a full alarm
BUT
If I have the zone type set to 23 - IT WILL NOT WORK PROPERLY. Only give me a trouble.
????ZONE type 23 is meant to give me a 24 hour file alarm with siren type 11 is it not?????
SO
Where else can I look for the problem?
Thanks
Steve
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| Posted: Saturday May 3rd, 2008 02:07 am |
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admin
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To recap and expand on my previous explanation;
"Zone trouble" occurs when there is an open or short circuit detected when the zone is set for EOL resistors
For zone type 1 which is for a normal door or window contact, a Zone Trouble when system is unset causes a Zone Trouble alarm
When the system is armed, a Zone Trouble results in an Intruder alarm, as it may be due to a burglar cutting the alarm wires
For A Fire Alarm cutting the wires causes a Zone Trouble regardless of whether the system is armed or not. This behaviour is determined by the Zone Type Settings.
Hence to summarise if you have a zone trouble on Zone Type 23, it will give you a Zone Trouble alarm in Night mode and NOT a Fire Alarm
When the EOL shunts are set to NO EOL ie near the terminal blocks, zone trouble should not occur unless an external voltage is applied to the zone
You say you removed the wire from zone 10 but not the common. Can you remove ALL wires from both zone 10 and 11 and recheck for zone trouble?
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| Posted: Wednesday May 7th, 2008 09:31 pm |
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SteveS
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Hi
Thank you for your reply. I was already aware of the modus operandi of tamper circuits, with and without EOL resistors.
What we have here is something not connected with the sensors attached to comfort. I have now tested the TWO circuits in question: disconnecting BOTH the zone and the common connector and substituting a short length of cable plus a switch.
To be absolutely clear - I have simulated, at the panel end of my set-up a NC connection, similar to that which exists in the smoke detector and opened that contact...
As soon as the contact is opened I get a ZONE TROUBLE and NOT a full fire alert.
I also put a voltmeter across the pair coming down from the smoke detector - NO VOLTAGE PRESENT.
AND I also put the meter between each in turn of the two coming from the detector and ground - NO VOLTAGE PRESENT.
I also confirmed that there is 100% continuity across the contacts of the smoke detector - ie they are CLOSED.
Please could we now look at the programming side of this. I have checked all the settings that this type of zone should be set to ie - zone type 23 and alarm type 11. All seems correct.
Where else can I look?
Thanks
Steve
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| Posted: Thursday May 8th, 2008 12:58 am |
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admin
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Can you disconnect all wires from the two zones, and use a voltmeter to measure the voltage between the zone and common of each zone
also send you ccl file to support@cytech.biz so we can see if there are any configuration issues
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 10:02 am |
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SteveS
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Hi,
I have disconnected the terminals to ccts 10 & 11.
I get a voltmeter reading of 1.85
I am unable, at this moment, to send you a CCL file as we do not YET have a PC linked to the comfort panel. This is to be future upgrade. My desire, at the moment, is to get comfort working as a basic intruder + fire detection system.
Please could you confirm two things for me..
1/. What version of the Program Worksheet should I be using with 4.207.
and
2/. ON THE CORRECT WORKSHEET(S) - in tables 8, 9 and 10, What should be the values of row 23?
In fact - please could you email me - as an attachment - the correct worksheet.
Thanks
Steve
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 01:35 pm |
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 02:17 pm |
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admin
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The voltage you are measured are correct for shunts set to NO EOL
program the followiing Locations as in the worksheet for Zone Type 23
Location 2656, Value = 255
Location 2657, Value = 131
Location 2658, Value = 12
Location 2659, Value = 5
Be VERY careful when entering these values. If you enter the values into the wrong locations you will only cause yourself more problems
Also check the programming of your alarm type 12 (Fire Alarm)
Eng Menu 2 for Alarm types, enter 12#
5 for Siren Type should have the value 2
You may have the wrong siren type programmed, causing you to hear the Trouble siren instead of the Fire siren
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 02:20 pm |
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15th Post |
SteveS
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The worksheet for Comfort I O4.207 is Worksheet File System 24. It can be downloaded from http://www.cytech.biz/manuals.html which lists all our manuals
I think you mean 64 - please confirm....
I have been using 64 - NONE of the values in table 10 correspond with the right hand column entries on this table - THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE FACT THAT ONE MUST ADD 128 TO EACH ENTRY, which I see is stated in later worksheets
Please could you confirm the value that should be entered at location 2657.
The worksheet specifically can be found at \
http://www.cytech.biz/Default.aspx?cmd=sQ0OYE9X66w%2b0P%2bAcFsmAI3j73Rwtfrj&fileid=20&dcid=3&pageindex=
The values for each zone can be found in Tables 8,9 and 10, with the loxcations and values listed
I suspect that your inputs have been damaged. You may need to send the board back to your distributor for repair. Where and when did you get the system as it is a fairly old one
Ccts 10 and 11 are on a newly acquired LEM01. I do not agree with your suggestion as - see previous exchanges - both ccts 10 and 11 work fine when they are defined to a different alarm type.
Regards
Steve
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 02:28 pm |
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admin
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I have corrected the File System in my post it should be file system 18, work64guide is the document
You need to enter the locatuons that I have indicated on my post above
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 02:45 pm |
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SteveS
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Thank you,
our posts crossed each other.
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 04:43 pm |
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SteveS
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I have checked all those settings. They are as they should be.
Still the same problem.
Thought...
How many different types of LEM01 are there?
Steve
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| Posted: Monday May 12th, 2008 08:50 pm |
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SteveS
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The voltage you are measured are correct for shunts set to NO EOL
program the followiing Locations as in the worksheet for Zone Type 23
Location 2656, Value = 255
Location 2657, Value = 131
Location 2658, Value = 12
Location 2659, Value = 5
Be VERY careful when entering these values. If you enter the values into the wrong locations you will only cause yourself more problems
I was and have been very careful with all the location values for I am only too aware of the problems if I get an entry wrong
The only difference I found was that the value at 2657 was 134 NOT 131. It says 134 in the worksheet. As far as I can make out, the only difference entering 131 would be to change the sensitivity from 500ms to 100ms. As the contacts on the smoke detector(s) stay open until the unit drops out of alarm state, I cannot see how this will make any difference!
Also check the programming of your alarm type 12 (Fire Alarm)
Eng Menu 2 for Alarm types, enter 12#
5 for Siren Type should have the value 2
You may have the wrong siren type programmed, causing you to hear the Trouble siren instead of the Fire siren.
I have also carefully checked all the above and they are exactly as stated.
I have just spent quite some time testing. Trying out various security modes - Day mode, night mode and away mode. In each mode I have disconnected the detectors (ccts 10 & 11) at the panel. AND NO MATTER WHAT the security mode I only ever get a zone trouble.
The interesting point here is that I have the phone response for engineer menu 2, 12 set to off BUT I still get a call each time I open the circuit.
This leads me to think that, even though the zone type is "23" comfort is not recognizing this.
ALSO
I have just tried the following on cct 11
1/. changing the zone type to 0 (so it did not 'go off' when I...
2/. alter the value at 2605 to 134. (yes - I did reset)
3/. changing the zone type to 10 .
The result was the same - opening the circuit only gave me zone trouble.
Any more thoughts please?
Kind regards
Steve
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| Posted: Tuesday May 13th, 2008 02:18 am |
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admin
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You are using Comfort I. Are you also using the LEM01 for Comfort I? LEM01-M2 for Comfort II is not compatible with Comfort I
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