Posted: Wednesday Mar 5th, 2014 03:02 am |
|
1st Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Hello,
I have a KNX Sensor (GA: 8/0/0) which I have mapped as a Virtual Input.
Sometimes this sensor triggers False Alarms, that I don't know how to explain why! (heat waves, maybe).
Is there a way to avoid these false alarms? Is this a known issue with KNX sensors?
Perhaps by programing something like: Only trigger alarm if it detects 3 times in 15 seconds. How can I do this with a Virtual Input?
Thank you.
|
Posted: Wednesday Mar 5th, 2014 05:54 am |
|
2nd Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Hi Cristo
KNX sensors may be more prone to false alarms because their function is more for Presence Detection rather than alarms. Most KNX systems use them for switching on lights. Alarm sensors are designed to minimise false alarms (at least the good ones)
There is a Vibration Analyser Response 86 in the default cclx template which is shown below
If Timer Timer08 = 0 Then
Do NullResponse After 30 Seconds Using Timer08
Set Counter007 = 0
End If
Increment Counter007
If Counter Counter007 >= 3 Then
Stop Timer Timer08
Else
Skip Alarm
End If
This triggers alarm if there are 3 activations in 30 seconds, you can change the parameters
The Response should be assigned to the Virtual Input.
Alternatively you can use the Alert Zone Type. You need alert zones within 10 minutes to trigger an intruder alarm
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 02:05 am |
|
3rd Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Thankyou for the reply.
I tried your sugestion but I think it's not working properly. When I arm the alarm, as soon as I apear to the sensor, it starts the entry time countdown (the knx sensor is an entry door). Even if I do a quick apear and hide.
I assigned the Vibration Analyzer to the On Response of the Zone. Is this right? I also tried the sensivity Zone Type 50 and then 850, but the behaviour was the same.
Am I doing something wrong?
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 03:04 pm |
|
4th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
The response was not meant to work on an Entry Door zone. It is for an immediate zone that is active when armed
Try this instead
make the zone NOT entry door, but PIR Night/Away instead
Zone Response
If Timer Timer08 = 0 Then
Do NullResponse After 30 Seconds Using Timer08
Set Counter007 = 0
End If
Increment Counter007
If Counter Counter007 >= 3 Then
Stop Timer Timer08
Start entry Delay
Else
Skip Alarm
End If
I dont like having a PIR as an entry door. an entry door should be a real door so that it can be used as the final door arming for away mode.
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 03:47 pm |
|
5th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
This KNX sensor is at entrance/exit. I will try later to see if it works.
How do I assign an entry Delay to a normal PIR at an entrance/exit where the keypad is installed? Entry Path?
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 04:54 pm |
|
6th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
They are different things
Entry Path setting in a zone means the zone will not cause an alarm when there is movement after the entry door is opened for the duration of the entry delay
Entry Delay is the delay started by opening the Entry door when the system is armed. During entry delay the Entry path zones do not cause alarms
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 06:17 pm |
|
7th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Yes, that I understand. My question is:
How do I assign an entry Delay to a normal PIR (because you say one shouldn't assign Entry Door to a PIR) at an entrance/exit where the keypad is installed?
(there is no magnet on the fisical "entry door". There are only PIR's).
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 06:41 pm |
|
8th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
"Start entry delay" assigned to a Pir zone will start an entry delay if it is not an entry doorThat becomes the same as making the Pir an entry door
What I meant is it is better to have a magnetic contact on a door rather than use a PIR as entry door
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 6th, 2014 06:56 pm |
|
9th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Ok. So if there are only PIR's, the PIR that is nearest to the entry door should be configured as Entry Door, nevertheless, it is a better practice, to have a magnet sensor on the actual entry door, and have it configured as Entry Door. Is this it?
|
Posted: Friday Mar 7th, 2014 05:37 am |
|
10th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
nevertheless, it is a better practice, to have a magnet sensor on the actual entry door, and have it configured as Entry Door. Is this it?
That is correct
If you do not have an actual entry door, you have to set the Away Arming Method as "By Delay" which means the system will arm to away mode after the fixed delay and you have to give enough time to exit the premises, eg 45 seconds
The system has to wait for that delay before it can arm so to make sure that the system is armed you need to wait for that time before the system is armed
For "Away arm by final door" the system arms a few seconds after the entry door is closed and the exit delay is terminated
if there is an actual Entry door, if the PIR detects motion before the door is opened when the system is armed, there is an immediate alarm
If there is no entry door and you use a PIR as entry door, then if it detects motion it starts an entry delay, so if there is someone already in the house he gets more time to disable the system
Hence an entry door is more secure and convenient
|
Posted: Friday Mar 7th, 2014 05:56 am |
|
11th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Ok, makes all the sense.
I´ve tried your sugestion with the Start Entry Delay, and it works fine.
Thank you.
|
Posted: Friday Mar 7th, 2014 02:22 pm |
|
12th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Hello,
After making some tests, there is something I don't quite like about this solution.
If there is a continuous movement from the person being detected, the counter007 never increments!
That is to say that, with a continuous movement the person can take time to inactivate the alarm sistem ...!
How can one make a work arround on this? Maybe another timer to break the continuous movement?
|
Posted: Friday Mar 7th, 2014 06:13 pm |
|
13th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Instead of
" Do NullResponse After 30 Seconds Using Timer08"
substiute with
" Do TriggerAlarm After 30 Seconds Using Timer08"
TriggerAlarm Response:
If Security Mode <> Security Off
Then Do Alarm Intruder Alarm
endif
|
Posted: Friday Mar 7th, 2014 06:24 pm |
|
14th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
But then, if there is a False Alarme (eg: Counter007=1) the alarm will end up triggering Intruder Alarm, or not?
|
Posted: Saturday Mar 8th, 2014 06:26 am |
|
15th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
You are right, it will cause an alarm
You can still use the original response
If there is continuous motion for 30 seconds it will not trigger entry delay or cause alarm but the PIR should trigger again.
Or you may be able to thnk of a better logic
That is one of the problems of using PIR for Entry door
|
Posted: Saturday Mar 8th, 2014 07:05 am |
|
16th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
What is the instruction to test if the Zone (PIR) is ON?
My idea is: if after Timer08 ends and the Zone is still ON then trigger alarm.
|
Posted: Saturday Mar 8th, 2014 07:08 am |
|
17th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
If Input (Zonename) <>0 Then..
|
Posted: Saturday Mar 8th, 2014 09:37 pm |
|
18th Post |
cristo
Member
Joined: | Tuesday Mar 4th, 2014 |
Location: | |
Posts: | 10 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
I tried the following:
Zone Response:
If Timer Timer10 = 0 Then
Do AgainstContMov After 15 Seconds Using Timer10
Set Counter020 = 0
End If
Increment Counter020
If Counter Counter020 >= 3 Then
Stop Timer Timer10
Start EntryDelay
Else
Skip Alarm
End If
Response AgainstContMov:
If Input PIR_Hall <> 0 Then
Start EntryDelay
End If
But the AgainstContMov Response is not working! With continuous motion, I would expect to start EntryDelay after 15s, but it doesn´t!
What is not right? Is it because it's a Virtual Input, from KNX?
Last edited on Saturday Mar 8th, 2014 09:55 pm by cristo
|
Posted: Sunday Mar 9th, 2014 05:06 am |
|
19th Post |
ident
Administrator
Joined: | Wednesday Aug 9th, 2006 |
Location: | Singapore |
Posts: | 3493 |
Status: |
Offline
|
back to top
|
Start Entry delay only works when it is in a Zone Response
I think it is quite difficult to keep continuous motion on the PIR for 30 seconds. Perhaps there is a setting on the sensor to turn on for a fixed time when motion is detected, eg 1 second
There is no difference between the Virtual Input and a real Input once it is triggered
Last edited on Sunday Mar 9th, 2014 05:07 am by ident
|
Posted: Thursday Mar 27th, 2014 01:21 pm |
|
20th Post |
mario.jr
Member
back to top
|
I have alarm sensors connected to binary inputs and had many false alarms. I have reduced drastically alarms parameterizing these binary inputs. In my case prompted to send activation with 0.5 second delay and deactivation of the sensor without any delay. It is also possible to add that cyclically send deactivation sensor in a shorter delay activation time, but that can burden the KNX bus if you have many sensors on KNX. This has led me to 80% or 90% fewer false alarms in the KNX sensors.
RegardsLast edited on Thursday Mar 27th, 2014 01:27 pm by mario.jr
|
|