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UCM/KNX Virtual Input Question
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 Posted: Sunday Feb 19th, 2012 08:19 pm
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auredor
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Hello,

Using Comfort Opt with an UCM/KNX, I've mapped a virtual port to a KNX sensor. So, when the sensor detects a failure it returns a message to the defined group and Comfort intercepts this message. Then, Comfort activated the corresponding zone alarm if activated. So, everithing works very well.

Unfortunatelly, when I disarm the Comfort it's not possible to arm it afterwards. This is because the KNX value is still mapped into Comfort table. But there's no Counter or Sensor registers available that I can decrement to reset the virtual zone input. If I try to arm Confort, it returns me an Arm Failure State corresponding to this Virtual Zone Input.

The only way to solve that is to write a complex script with the requested actions but I would prefer to simply be able to reset the Virtual Zone Input.

NB. In my case it's not an option to ask KNX sensor to send a Zero state after a given time.

Do you have some other way to solve my issue ?

Thanks.

auredor



 Posted: Monday Feb 20th, 2012 03:30 am
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ident
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A KNX sensor which is a viritual zone means that if it is open it is like a Comfort zone being open and if it is closed it is like a zone being closed

If it is a motion sensor it should send an On state telegram when there is motion and send an Off state telegram when there is no motion

If it does not send an off telegram when there is no motion then the mapped Comfort zone remains open.

It should not be up to Comfort to reset the zone, the KNX sensor should send on and off states

if it does not send an Off state then perhaps the sensor settings are incorrect

Check if the sensor sends an Off state to KNX when there is no motion

Also what is your comfort and UCM/KNX firmware versions?



 Posted: Monday Feb 20th, 2012 08:18 am
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auredor
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I agree with you. Normally, the sensor should send the OFF set. But I've set-up it in order not to do that because those same sensor are used for lighting switch on when movement is detected. The PIR mustn't send the OFF state because it will switch off the light. With lots of detections in a short time frame, this means that the light will be toggled a lots of time. And I want to keep a good reactivity with the PIR. So, I cannot increase the time interval between two detections.
The light actuator has been set-up as a pulse fonction. It means that when receiving an ON telegram from PIR, it will switch ON and remain in this state for a given delay. However, the actuator should remain sensitive to OFF telegram coming from switch device to switch off the light when leaving the room.
So, as PIR detector sends ON/OFF telegrams to both group adress, their behaviour is related.

Comfort FileSystem : 34
Comfort Firmware : 254
Comfort Version : 6
Comfort Revision : 11

UCM/KNX Verison : 6.011

Other question : is there any french vocabulary available for Comfort or do I have to make it by myself (French Customer will not accept to get an english security system. Most of them doesn't speak english) ?

Thanks.



 Posted: Monday Feb 20th, 2012 11:34 am
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slychiu
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This is a situation where you should use Comfort's logic to control the light, instead of directly switched by the PIR


  1. Program the PIR to send ON and Off commands. This will allows the virtual input to work correctly. Reprogram the LIGHT group address to another, which is different from the PIR.
  2. In the Comfort zone ON Response turn on the KNX Light and start a delay to turn off the light if not triggered again. This will keep the light on until there is no motion for the programmed delay eg 10 minutes
Using Comfort to do this is much more powerful and flexible, because you can add logic that the light should turn on only at night or when other conditions apply

There is no French Vocabulary yet which is probably why we have not sold many Comforts in France . You will have to translate and record it, but we can help  The VoiceProc and Voiceplay software tools can be downoaded from http://www.cytech.biz/software.html

We would like to have a French- speaking Comfort






 Posted: Monday Feb 20th, 2012 12:09 pm
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auredor
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Thank you for your answer. I will apply it if there is no another option.

The point is that I want to avoid as much as possible to use a central monitoring system to control "vital" component. Let's imagine that for any reason there is some issues with comfort. Then, it means that I will not be able to use the lights in the house anymore. Usually it's one of the reason why installers choose KNX technology : potential failure cannot happen at the same time on every devices. So, maybe one lamp will not work but the other will still be operative. If comfort failed, what about all the lightings ???

So, I've identified two other options :

- PIR event sends a ON telegram on an 1-bit mapped object in Comfort. The response to this event is to send a new KNX object with new Group Adress. This Group Adress is associated to a Virtual zone input which can be reset by sending  a second KNX object after a given time :
Response :
KNX On UCM02 70
"Timer01 for 5sec"
KNX Off UCM02 70

But unfortunally, it doesn't look like the UCM/KNX can direclty get the KNX telegram sent from the Response... Can you confirm please ?

- PIR event sends a ON telegram on an 1-bit mapped object in Comfort. And Then either I can direct "simulate" a zonetype alarm with an action. So, it takes actions depending on the security modes of Comfort. But I cannot find such action???
Either I have to recode all the differents actions for every Security modes of Confort + Manage Entry Delay + Manage Dial-UP

Thanks.



 Posted: Monday Feb 20th, 2012 12:53 pm
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ident
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What I proposed does not depend on Comfort only to control the light

The light actuator/dimmer can still be controlled by a KNX button with the same group address, so if Comfort fails the button is still able to control the light

However the PIR sensor should have a different group address which goes to Comfort so that you can have a much better control of when the light turns on and off

If Comfort fails then the PIR will not trigger the light but the switch is still able to do so. I think the logical capability that you can achieve with Comfort will outdo the disadvantage of not having the PIR trigger the light should Comfort not work. For example you may not want the light to turn on in the daytime. Or you may want to disable the light turning on and off when there is a party

The KNX group address of the PIR sensor can be mapped to a Counter or a Virtual Input.
If Virtual Input then it will activate the zone type and the Zone Response. It is exactly like a physical zone is activated so if the system is armed then it can cause an alarm according to the zone type
The zone On Response can send KNX Commands eg

If Security Mode = Off then
   KNX On UCM02 70
  Do Response KNX-Off after 300 seconds using Timer01
End if
-------------------------

Response KNX-Off
KNX Off UCM02 70

Or add more conditions
If Security Mode = Off AND Hours > 20 then
   KNX On UCM02 70
  Do Response KNX-Off after 300 seconds using Timer01
End if



You can also map the KNX group address to a counter, in which case the Counter Response would be similar
if Counter01 >0
KNX On UCM02 70
Do Response KNX-Off after 300 seconds using Timer01


But unfortunally, it doesn't look like the UCM/KNX can direclty get the KNX telegram sent from the Response... Can you confirm please ? I do not understand what you mean by the above.
A Response can send a KNX telegram to any group address as in the examples above




 Posted: Monday Feb 20th, 2012 01:16 pm
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auredor
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You're right. I would still be able to control the light if Comfort is down.

Regarding the sentence you didn' understand. Let me explain you in more details :

UCM/KNX mapping - KNXtoComfort :
PIR (0/0/55) -> Comfort Counter001
??? (0/0/70) -> Comfort Virtual Zone01

Counter001 Response :
Send KNX telegram to Group Adress (0/0/70)

Scenario :
PIR activated -> Counter001 response -> Virtual Zone1 Activated. 0/0/70 Group Adress is not a physical KNX device, ii is to do like a loop from UCM/KNX output to input...

By the way, if a PIR is in an ExitPath, it means that it will keep detecting while arming Comfort. I know that we can use delay in such case but this also mean that we have to arm force this zone each time ????

Thanks.



 Posted: Tuesday Feb 21st, 2012 01:57 am
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I have programmed a cclx file in order to better explain

The PIR 0/0/55 is either mapped to Virtual zone OR to Counter, not to both.

If mapped to virtual zone then it will act like a physical zone and trigger zone response. If mapped to Counter then it will trigger a Counter Response

In the file attached I have mapped to Virtual Input Zone 6 which is an Entry Path.
See UCM2 KNX  to Comfort for the mapping
See Security > Zones > Zone 6 for the zone setting

The Zone On Response is named

Switch On Lights after 8 PM
If SecurityMode = SecurityOff Then
    If Hours >= 20 Then
        Knx On Ucm02 70
        Do SwitchOffLights After 300 Seconds Using Timer01
    End If
End If

This switches on KNX light 0/0/70 and starts a timer to switch off the light after 300 seconds IF the security system is Off (not armed) AND the time is after 8 PM
KNX address 0/0/70 is the address of the light - it should not be the same as the PIR address

For this to work properly the PIR must send OFF telegram when it is closed.

The following  is an explanation of how security systems are armed;
When you arm the system, Entry Path zones are  announced but this does not prevent you from arming so you do not need to force arm. Entry Path zones are sensors in the Entry or exit path which are triggered momentarily during arming to away mode. Once the entry door is closed to complete arming to Away Mode, there should be no motion in Entry path zones because everyone is already outside.

When arming to night mode, Entry path zones are the same as non-entry path zones. The system can be armed only when the zones are closed. Entry path zones are motion sensors so there is a delay to clear the area, then the system is armed. Again you should not have to force arm because there should be no motion in the zone. Only windows and doors  need to be force armed if they are open and can be closed later

If you do not require the PIR to act as a security zone, then use the Counter mapping
In this case the Counter Response should be

If Last UCMCounter > 0
   If SecurityMode = SecurityOff Then
    If Hours >= 20 Then
        Knx On Ucm02 70
        Do SwitchOffLights After 300 Seconds Using Timer01
      End If
  End If
EndIf

That means if the telegram from the PIR has an ON value and security is Off and Time > 8 PM then turn on the light for 300 seconds

Attachment: KNXVirtualZone.zip (Downloaded 1 time)



 Posted: Tuesday Feb 21st, 2012 07:19 am
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auredor
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Thanks for the support.

I understood your point and I tested it. It works fine.
So now everythink is fine and I will use this solution.

The purpose of my previous email was only for information :
Is it possible send a KNX message to a Virtual Output that can DIRECTLY be looped on a Virtual Input ???

Thanks



 Posted: Tuesday Feb 21st, 2012 07:19 am
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auredor
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Thanks for the support.

I understood your point and I tested it. It works fine.
So now everythink is fine and I will use this solution.

The purpose of my previous email was only for information :
Is it possible send a KNX message to a Virtual Output that can DIRECTLY be looped on a Virtual Input ???

Thanks



 Posted: Tuesday Feb 21st, 2012 11:20 am
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ident
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I dont understand what you mean by "send a KNX message to a Virtual Output that can DIRECTLY be looped on a Virtual Input'




 Posted: Tuesday Feb 21st, 2012 04:09 pm
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auredor
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----------- ----------- <-- IN 0/0/70 <-|
| Comfort | <=> | UCM/KNX | |
----------- ----------- --> OUT 0/0/70 --|

"Send On UCM02 70" Action from a Comfort Response will send an KNX telegram to the bus. But as UCM/KNX module INPUT is connected the the same, it means that it should be able to catch this KNX telegram.

If there is mapping to the Group Adress 0/0/70 in KNXToComfort table, then Comfort should be able to trigger the corresponding Response (from a Counter, Sensor or Virtual Zone Input.

Actually, it looks like Comfort doesn't trigger when receiving 0/0/70 KNX telegram...



 Posted: Wednesday Feb 22nd, 2012 03:10 am
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Only received KNX group addresses can trigger responses by mapping

KNX telegrams that are sent from comfort do not trigger their mapped responses. This is to prevent double triggering of the same response

You do not want to have

Comfort Response send 0/0/70 to loop back into Comfort and trigger a mapped Response

If you need Comfort to do something besides sending the telegram then include that in the same Response

eg  in the Response you can have

Send KNX 0/0/70
 do othjer actions





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